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Post by Elementum on Sept 13, 2013 3:15:07 GMT
“…stop making out people to be evil if they fight back. Or run away. As in divorce.Reactive abuse. A sneaky devil of a beast as many of us [ self included] have been guilty. Also adds to the joy of GUILT in FOG. Share thoughts or moments of your GUILT. I know that on some boards, everyone is "perfect" and was never ever ever bad back to their partners , which I don't believe for 10 seconds. Rather denial is a powerful mechanism on both sides of the street.
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Post by Eleanor Rigby on Sept 13, 2013 8:43:17 GMT
You are right MC. I can only speak for myself of course but I have been guilty of putting all of the blame for fights, arguments and misunderstandings on my H at times. He is NOT always the one responsible for our issues. God knows I have a ton of issues myself that I sometimes take out on him.
For me it became an issue of catch 22. No matter how I act, react or don't makes no difference in the intensity or insanity of the arguments. I have learned to be on defense 24/7 so any reaction I have or had to my H behavior was justified in my mind. For years one person kept trying to drill into my head that by reacting I was fueling the behavior but I found it very difficult not to react by defending myself or retaliating. It has only been with age and maturity and a whole lot of learning in the past year that I have been able to just keep my mouth shut and ignore his verbal assaults. I do have my limits though and will only take so much PD bullshit before I do react and most of the time it's the same way he acts. I have also been guilty of instigating fights with him just because he has said or done something to hurt me or just plain piss me off.
I will never say that the blame for our difficult marriage is all his fault or all my fault because we both have made it what it is. I will however say that he is a bit more to blame for the state of our marriage because he has said and done things to hurt and betray me in ways that can never be fully healed. Sure, it was fueled by his mental illnesses but when he became aware of his problems, how they manifest AND how to prevent or at least lessen them he became responsible for changing it. His choice NOT to take responsibility is his fault and his alone. My fault is in not being consistent in my boundaries, responses and actions.
We are both very confusing people at times and very inconsistent. I do not like that about myself but it is in part because I am married to a PD and as we know a good day for them is chaotic, a bad day is total bedlam so over time how else would a non PD adapt? We become conditioned to be as crazy as they are just to survive. I have jokingly told ppl that I am BP/BPD by proxy because although I myself do not have any of those issues I have lived with someone for so long that has them that I have learned to be crazy. As I look back over the past 19 years I am ashamed and regretful for the ways I reacted to my H. I wish I had been able to understand sooner how to set boundaries and maintain them and not take everything he says and does personally. Maybe we would not be where we are today if I had done some things differently but I can only go forward from here armed with the knowledge I now have and make better decisions for my present and future.
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Post by Elementum on Sept 13, 2013 10:15:31 GMT
ER, beautifully stated. Same here. Had I known in the beginning? Maybe it could be different. Such was not the case. Regardless he chose not to take responsibility for his actions. Once, or twice, but it did not change anything there after. Self fulfilling prophecy kicked in...I am done.
I have my limits too. After being pushed way too far past them....no. It's enough and I fight back. Period. And you know what? It's not wrong.
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Post by Eleanor Rigby on Sept 13, 2013 13:31:29 GMT
The hardest part for me is the good days. We have more of them now than ever before and I know that is only because of the meds he takes. If he gets a wild hair across his ass and stops taking them then it goes back to the old ways within 24 hours. That does not mean he never has his PD rages and moments while he is taking his meds because I know all too well that he does but they are fewer and farther between.
The thing I cannot deal with at all is his betrayal. He does that no matter if he takes his meds or not because the meds only tame the rages, insecurity and paranoia not the massive character flaws of PD like his pathological lying and sneakiness.
I am still hurt and resentful over his betrayal of my trust and good will. I don't believe he will ever be able to earn that back. It takes a lot to break my trust but once it's broken I'm done and for me there is no looking back ever again. I ask myself if I can remain married to someone I do not trust and never will again. The answer is no but that makes me feel guilty and resentful at the same time.
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Post by Elementum on Sept 13, 2013 14:11:23 GMT
ER , the statement is not logical. Why to feel guilt about anothers betrayal? Does not compute.
This is past the point of how "good" he is now...there is soo much SHIT, that...why even bother? Even more simply: 1. Do you love him? 2. Do you want him?
Unfortunately, you have his carcass around you daily. I do not. I have had ample time to enjoy life in the last year without PD bullshit and I can promise you, there is NOTHING sweeter than to be free of that total bull shit. Sounds horrible I know...but...screw that. I deserve a whole hell of a lot better than the shit that gets dished out when he is around. And quite frankly at this point, there is not a goddamn thing he could hope to do to change my mind. I am Done. I have not ever been so Done with a human being in my life as I have been with him. It's truly bizarre. No hate, no anger, just finished. Spent too many goddamn years trying to get through to him. Pointless exercise in futility. Keep his granny and pedo porn. Whack off to that bucko. And don't be so stupid to suggest that me of all people would be "jealous" of it. Seriously fucked up thinking on that one.
Endless the depth the pile of BS...just...NO!
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Post by Eleanor Rigby on Sept 13, 2013 16:16:27 GMT
My guilt is based in the fact that all I ever wanted was to know what was wrong with him and to have him treated. I feel now that we know what is wrong and he is doing better, although he should be doing more, that by leaving I am turning my back on him. Almost like I was never committed to him to begin with but just wanted to fix him. The deal breaker for me was finding the child porn and child erotica which I had NEVER suspected or had any clue he was looking at and collecting. That was the most horrific experience. I seriously believed in my heart that he was cheating on me with another woman or man I never even THOUGHT he was a pedophile. I never saw any indication of that behavior from him and God knows if anyone would recognize it I would after what I have been through with my own father! I was totally blind-sided and devastated and that is what woke me up to the fact that he is a lot more ill than I am willing or equipped to deal with.
I tried to leave as soon as I found out and alerted the cops but no one would take me because I have pets. I will not leave my babies behind to be mistreated and I know with no doubt he will mistreat them and neglect them so I had to go to Plan B. I am one of those who struggles with decisions that I consider major. I am terrified of making the wrong decision and hurting people or myself. I also have an issue with feeling selfish if I know my actions will cause someone else pain or prevent them from obtaining something they want.
I have always been a very altruistic person BUT mine spills over into extreme self sacrifice at times and I want to change that. I want to be able help but not hinder and I am working on finding that fine line. I'm doing a lot better with it because whenever I am confronted with a situation I actually talk to myself (not out loud) and analyze exactly what it is the person needs, is asking for and what IF ANYTHING I can do to help OR if I even WANT to help. I am finding a lot of times I don't want to help the person not because they don't deserve it but just because I don't want to or it would actually harm them more. I am horrible at speaking up and volunteering myself for things that I really shouldn't just because it makes life easier for someone else regardless of how it may upset mine. I'm taking baby steps.
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Post by Elementum on Sept 13, 2013 16:24:39 GMT
ER,
This is the same guy that beat you = physical abuse, sexually abused you and a few other choice bits...along with the child erotica.
Read that clinical study Unicorn posted. Remind yourself of Trauma Bonding and back away emotionally. I know the GUILT....that was the hardest to finally let go of. Obligation is a struggle sometimes...but not after the cheating. That is a deal breaker for me. Don't know why I have such a strong ax about that. Other than, my father was the one who cheated on my mother and I was the one that busted him. Broke my mom. Drove her to the bottle...but then she got the proof in spades later which , well....didn't go well for them. Bullshit r/s and marriage.
I don't want that in my life. It already is that. I am happier alone.
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Post by Eleanor Rigby on Sept 13, 2013 16:42:55 GMT
I'm out of the fog, over the obligation now I just have to get past the guilt. I think for just 6 months I have done remarkably well considering all I have been through and the amount of time I have been involved with a PD.
Trust me, I have not forgotten the abuse and betrayal I have suffered at his hands and I will not allow it to happen ever again from him or anyone for as long as I live.
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Post by Elementum on Sept 13, 2013 17:12:18 GMT
(((ER))))
Why the Guilt? Explore that...I had to do the same thing. Look at it really closely.
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Post by Eleanor Rigby on Sept 14, 2013 6:40:55 GMT
My biggest issue of guilt is over my baby sister. I was 9 when she was born and I was 11 when I stopped going for summer visits with my father because of his abuse. I only got to see her twice after that, once when she was 4 and again when she was 12. I will never forget the look on her face and the love in her eyes for me when I last saw her. She was starstruck and she would have sworn to you that I hung the moon and stars.
I have felt guilty for leaving her behind when I was 11 because I knew that bastard father of ours would abuse her. I know it wasn't my fault. I told on him but no one believed me. I feel guilty because I abandoned her for my own sake because I wasn't strong enough to stick it out and protect her. I never deserved her love and admiration and I still don't because I feel like I sacrificed her.
Logically I know I was only a child myself and that it was never my fault for the abuse any of us suffered at his hands. It was never my responsibility to have to protect my sister from that rabid dog but that doesn't change the way I feel. I have promised her that I will make it up to her in every way I can before I die. She has never blamed me for leaving and she still loves and admires me like she always has but I still don't feel worthy. That guilt finally spilled over onto everything in my life and that is why I feel selfish for wanting to be happy and I feel guilty for pursuing happiness.
Wow...epiphany...
So, there it is.
I never realized until just this moment exactly WHY I feel that way and how deep seated and rooted that feeling is for me. My chest literally feels like it's going to implode from the immense sadness, regret and anger I feel about it. I think now that I have finally realized exactly what it is that has been eating away at me for all of these years I can finally start to heal. God, it all makes so much sense now. I feel kinda stupid now too lol.
If I may add something, I know God is a taboo subject these days but, I am a believer. I have prayed often for help from God to understand myself and to understand the why's of life and people. I never got my answer until now. I firmly believe that God brings people into our lives to help us and to challenge us. Mea, you are one of those people. Ever since we connected on OOTF you have not only helped me through some tough moments but you have also challenged me to look at things differently. I am thankful for you and I have been blessed to have you in my life. Thank you.
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Post by Elementum on Sept 14, 2013 7:57:03 GMT
((((( ER)))))
That is a cruel and heavy load to have carried on your heart all your life. That guilt, was not yours and your sister knew it too. You did what you could and when no one listened and came to your aid, you didn't have other options as a child. You have every right to be happy and want happiness for yourself.
God is not taboo. The Divine, has many names. It's what carries us when we want to fall.
ER, thankful for (((you))). Kicked my ass when I needed as well. You have no idea.
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Post by Eleanor Rigby on Sept 14, 2013 12:58:44 GMT
Thank you Mea. I can't recall a time that I had to talk you down or push you but if I have encouraged you in any way then I am thankful God used me to help you.
As for me, I am now fully prepared to pursue what I want and what God wants for me. At first I felt crushed beyond belief about the root of my feelings of guilt all of these years and then a calmness came over me and dried up my tears. It all made perfect sense and I felt a huge weight lifted from me.
I am so blessed that this understanding came to me while I still, hopefully, have many years left to live the way I was meant to. But, even if God took me this very minute I am still thankful that I no longer have that burden of guilt I have been carrying around for the past 33 years. I have finally put it back squarely on the shoulders of the rabid dog it belongs to. It is HIS sin NOT mine. It is HIS burden NOT mine.
I am not Jesus but my father sacrificed and crucified me for his own sins to save himself from persecution. He told my entire family that he never did those things to me or my cousin and when my cousin, out of fear and shame no doubt, denied being abused I was left standing alone. I was branded a liar and a trouble maker by my entire family because of him! They each carry their own blame but his is the greatest, I can understand their mistakes but his was a conscious and deliberate assault on me and countless other children.
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Post by Elementum on Sept 14, 2013 13:35:41 GMT
(((((ER)))) Your posts, I want to cry when I read some of them and the dark side of me, wants to do other unkind things to certain persons in your life. In the worst way and with cold deliberation.
And you were Not! The fact that you stood up for yourself regardless of the outcome says everything. Pretty damn terrifying for a little girl and then add the betrayal on of your cousin? He did, you posted an expose of the child erotica, and your shock...and I went and checked stbx PC, 3 mins later hit pay dirt. Not 3 mins!!!! I went Ice. Just....Ice. Unreal that same shit again. Can't handle that crap. Along with all the other shit? Too sickening.
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Post by Eleanor Rigby on Sept 14, 2013 14:26:40 GMT
Thanks Mea, I don't mean to upset anyone with my posts but I have to purge this crap once and for all. Of course I have talked about it umpteen million times in the past but until I was able to let go of that guilt last night I had NEVER been able to feel genuinely free. As for those people who hurt me? My cousin I forgive, she was just a kid herself and holds no blame for the abuse or even denying it happened. She needed her family and I do not blame her for that because if she had acknowledged it she would have been ostracized like me and she knew that because of what she saw and heard happen to me. I at least had an out she did not. She did eventually acknowledge the abuse after she was grown and it had taken a terrible toll on her. She became an alcoholic, she was using drugs, she was married and divorced a couple of times but now she is well. She found the way to let it all go long before I did. I have suffered too but now I am on my path to healing finally. I also forgave my aunts because even though they knew the truth they were still under the influence of their mother who was a very strong willed woman. She was never cruel or mean but there were certain things that just were NOT discussed and sexual abuse was one of those things. She did however suffer with false pride, we had a family business and a good reputation in the community, her fear was that if this had gotten out it would have ruined us. It was 1980 5 months after my grandfather had died and she was already under immense emotional stress. Who really knows how it would have affected us but she made her choice and I have had to accept and forgive her. She died in 1999 after years of suffering strokes and other illnesses that no doubt were made worse by her feeling of guilt and yes, she felt it after I was gone. My step-mother, God bless her, is British and had moved to the states to marry my father. She eventually had 2 children with him, a boy and a girl, and of course he brainwashed her into believing that he could have her deported if she tried to leave or have him arrested for abuse and she would never see her children again. He tried that with my own mother when she left him. He refused to let her take me with her and she had to move 100 miles away to be safe from him. He eventually agreed to let her have me but there were times when they physically got into tug of wars with me. I have very vivid memories of that and of having to run and go into hiding to get away from him. It was the 70's and women had no rights back then so she did what she had to to keep us safe and if that meant giving in to him then she did that. The thing I cannot forgive her for is not believing me when I told her what he had done to me. She had told me stories of how he had beaten her and broken her arm. I remember some of the fights they had and how she and I had to run from him so why did she not believe me? I cannot, right now, forgive her for that and not having him prosecuted. It may not have mattered because it was my word against his but at least I would have known she cared. Okay, sorry for the novella but things are just becoming so much clearer for me now and even more so when I type them out. This feels good so now maybe I can just let it all go for good. I'm tired and sick of carrying this all around with me, 44 years is damn long enough. Thanks for listening
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Post by Elementum on Sept 14, 2013 14:36:27 GMT
(((ER))))
That's kind of the kicker isn't it? When you look through her eyes, as you have, you can see the other side of it as well. It's horrible no matter what. And still....tough one isn't it? Had moderately similar dilemma with my mom, no where near the horrors that you went through. Feel sorry for my mom and your mom. It's the shit gift of abuse that keeps on giving unless you break the patterns.
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